The meeting started with a discussion of Chapter 16 of Ouspensky’s book "The Fourth Way", in which recurrence and reincarnation are considered.
RM brought up the question of what survives death.
L mentioned the analysis of Wilfred Bion, a student of Freud, who referred to primordial consciousness, bereft of words and symbols, as alpha function, compared to acquired consciousness which uses symbols and verbalisation (beta function). Beta function is required for dreaming to be possible. As beta function might require a physical brain, it is more likely the alpha function part of our consciousness which survives, if any.
This started a discussion about essence and personality. "R" pointed out that although Ouspensky used the term "false personality", Gurdjieff himself never mentioned it in his writing.
RM said that ego and identity are synonymous - the Advaita Vedanta talks about the universal self which is equivalent to the essence. It talks about fears and desires leading to memories, and that if you die with those fears and desires they transmigrate with your soul. There is no such thing as time. There is the potentiality of the Present always.
"R" talked about her teacher who was with Ouspensky in his last few years. Ouspensky asked him to take him back to certain places that were significant in his life to impress himself with the places, to be conscious of them while he was still alive.
RM said that time is an illusion.
L gave the example of a conductor, who repeatedly guides all the musicians through exactly the same sequence of notes. It is slightly different every time, yet still essentially the same. But as soon as attention begins to waver, the experience dissolves and is gone. Likewise our experience of reality may be a consequence of sustained and shared attention.
"Recurrence is in eternity, but reincarnation is in time," writes Ouspensky, early in the chapter. "But we have no evidence of the existence of time beyond our life. Time is life for each person, and it includes in itself all time, so that when life ends, time ends. So reincarnation is a less scientific theory than recurrence — too much is taken for granted."
L recalled the statement of Ayn Rand (which she attributed to the Greeks) - "It is not I who will die, it is the world that will end."
RM recounted a report of a little girl from Sri Lankan who said that her father was not her real father. Adults took her to where she said her real father was, who said that his daughter had died at 4 years old. The report said the girl identified many details at the house where she said she had lived.
D mentioned the case of Bridey Murphy which claimed to prove reincarnation. An internet search showed that the evidence is debatable.
"R" said that it is more useful to attend to the present moment and experience wonder as a response.
D talked about awe, and said he didn't believe in reincarnation or karma, because of the babies dying in Africa. "R" added that the word "dread", in the Rastafarian sense, also applies.
L gave an account of hearing footsteps in an empty church the previous week.
"R" described having felt a presence of massacre at Masada.
M read further from the text: "... it may be possible ... to study three successive recurrences. ... the first is when one comes close to the possibility of meeting with some kind of ideas of higher mind; the second, when one definitely comes in contact with C influence; and the third, which would be the result of it. ... But C influence is limited ... because if one does not make use of it, what is the good of wasting it?"
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
L summarised the influences as: A - normal influences of life, B - creative art, C - teaching from a higher source (school). C would be limited in the sense that Yehudi Menuhin's time would be - a pupil who did not practice would be replaced by another.
"R" said that we work whilst we're here to make sense of our own life and meaning. Our work and our efforts bring about transformation in us, and that transformation is needed by the next level up.
Sunday, July 4, 2010
Sunday, June 6, 2010
Objective and subjective knowledge
The meeting started by reading from Chapter 14 of Ouspensky’s book "In Search of the Miraculous", in which Gurdjieff discusses the "enneagram". At the beginning he talks about "the difficulty of conveying 'objective truths' in our words".
"R" said that areas which are theoretical can take one away from the real work. L suggested that practical examples should be discussed at all points.
RM referred to the three gunas: sattvic, rajasic and tamasic, and their definitions. They depict the active constructive force (rajasic) in relation to the destructive and stalling, sluggish force (tamasic) of a desire to sleep, and the work required on oneself in order to reach the point of balance in stillness (sattvic) in an alert, awake state.
M gave a definition of the third force, stating that the force of action and its opposing force are in such balance that ordinarily nothing would change or happen, and that the third force is the application of greater will power to overcome the resistance. L thought that even then the perception that things had changed might still be an illusion, and that the third force is often an apparently unrelated event that brings change. RM said that this often comes about through the experience of pain.
Preparing the ground for discussing the enneagram, Gurdjieff said "The successive transmission of the ideas of objective knowledge has always been a part of the task of those possessing this knowledge. ... The forms which express this knowledge when perceived by subjective consciousness are inevitably distorted ... man cannot reconstruct the idea of the whole starting from separate facts and they cannot divine the principles of the division of the whole without knowing the laws upon which this division is based."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
RM talked of how symbolism was at the essence of vedantic philosphy, which had a symbolic mathematics at the heart of it. L said that his studies of the use of the Fibonacci series in music led to finding its origins in Pingala's work on Sanskrit prosody of over two thousand years ago.
RM spoke of the Chinese philosopher Zhuangzi, who dreamt he was a butterfly, and on awakening did not "know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man."
L suggested the metaphor of a chess game to illustrate third force and the dream-like nature of life, quoting Nimzovich in his book "My System": "It may seem strange, but to me the chess pieces have living souls; they have wishes and desires, slumbering in their subconscious, to be understood only by me. They want something without understanding why. I don't understand either, but I know what they want."
RM spoke of the difficulty in reconciling the ideas of vedantic philosophy which focuses on the dissolution of ego, and the perspective of the Gurdjieff work which focuses on the evolution of an authentic identity through the growth of a person's essence. RM said that the ideas of Nisargadatta have been frequently quoted in his studies.
Gurdjieff's definitions of Man Numbers 1 to 7 were discussed (as described in Ouspensky's Book, "The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution").
RM thought that Jesus Christ was Man Number 7. D said that Gurdjieff considered himself Man Number 5.
The meeting moved on to the matter of what "identity" means.
RM spoke of unity as the point of becoming one with the world and the point of not knowing who one is, where "one" ends and where "the world" begins.
D described how one needs to hold onto one's identity because of the danger of disintegration of the mind without some anchor in identity. He described someone at present whom he thinks is losing his mind. RM spoke about the danger of feeling suicidal at the point of realisation that there is no subjective "I"; if there is no understanding at this point that there is an objective "I", then there is a real danger of returning to mechanical sleep (tamasic), or of killing oneself (rajasic).
RM talked of "Truth" being the same in every religion and spiritual path. This "truth" was 'objective'. The definition of subjective and objective were then discussed.
Des told the story of the guru who, on being asked "Is man in this world to honour the flower?", replied "Is the flower in this world to honour man?"
L said it is more important to encourage the asking of questions than to give people answers.
D commented that Ouspensky, near the end of his life, said that all the teaching was rubbish and he hadn't learned anything.
Gurdjieff's analysis and definition of the words that he used in his system were discussed. Words mean different things to different people and trying to speak about something requires careful definition - even then it is not possible to communicate deep knowledge in words alone; for this symbols are important.
L spoke of challenges of communication between Bushman and Europeans, and how it can be eased via intermediaries who have some knowledge of both cultures and languages and can act as a bridge.
"R" gave an example of how true symbolism is very rare in art. She described how she has experienced a few paintings in her life that have spoken to her on many levels - these rare paintings provide a symbol through image. A powerful painting is so because it resonates with meaning on a symbolic level with the viewer and achieves a real non-verbal communication from the painter to the viewer.
T said that engagement in creative activity helps with the capacity for paying attention. It is in the paying of attention to what one is trying to do that links one with oneself and the world. Attention is the link between inner and outer worlds.
"R" agreed that attention is key.
"R" said that areas which are theoretical can take one away from the real work. L suggested that practical examples should be discussed at all points.
RM referred to the three gunas: sattvic, rajasic and tamasic, and their definitions. They depict the active constructive force (rajasic) in relation to the destructive and stalling, sluggish force (tamasic) of a desire to sleep, and the work required on oneself in order to reach the point of balance in stillness (sattvic) in an alert, awake state.
M gave a definition of the third force, stating that the force of action and its opposing force are in such balance that ordinarily nothing would change or happen, and that the third force is the application of greater will power to overcome the resistance. L thought that even then the perception that things had changed might still be an illusion, and that the third force is often an apparently unrelated event that brings change. RM said that this often comes about through the experience of pain.
Preparing the ground for discussing the enneagram, Gurdjieff said "The successive transmission of the ideas of objective knowledge has always been a part of the task of those possessing this knowledge. ... The forms which express this knowledge when perceived by subjective consciousness are inevitably distorted ... man cannot reconstruct the idea of the whole starting from separate facts and they cannot divine the principles of the division of the whole without knowing the laws upon which this division is based."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
RM talked of how symbolism was at the essence of vedantic philosphy, which had a symbolic mathematics at the heart of it. L said that his studies of the use of the Fibonacci series in music led to finding its origins in Pingala's work on Sanskrit prosody of over two thousand years ago.
RM spoke of the Chinese philosopher Zhuangzi, who dreamt he was a butterfly, and on awakening did not "know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man."
L suggested the metaphor of a chess game to illustrate third force and the dream-like nature of life, quoting Nimzovich in his book "My System": "It may seem strange, but to me the chess pieces have living souls; they have wishes and desires, slumbering in their subconscious, to be understood only by me. They want something without understanding why. I don't understand either, but I know what they want."
RM spoke of the difficulty in reconciling the ideas of vedantic philosophy which focuses on the dissolution of ego, and the perspective of the Gurdjieff work which focuses on the evolution of an authentic identity through the growth of a person's essence. RM said that the ideas of Nisargadatta have been frequently quoted in his studies.
Gurdjieff's definitions of Man Numbers 1 to 7 were discussed (as described in Ouspensky's Book, "The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution").
RM thought that Jesus Christ was Man Number 7. D said that Gurdjieff considered himself Man Number 5.
The meeting moved on to the matter of what "identity" means.
RM spoke of unity as the point of becoming one with the world and the point of not knowing who one is, where "one" ends and where "the world" begins.
D described how one needs to hold onto one's identity because of the danger of disintegration of the mind without some anchor in identity. He described someone at present whom he thinks is losing his mind. RM spoke about the danger of feeling suicidal at the point of realisation that there is no subjective "I"; if there is no understanding at this point that there is an objective "I", then there is a real danger of returning to mechanical sleep (tamasic), or of killing oneself (rajasic).
RM talked of "Truth" being the same in every religion and spiritual path. This "truth" was 'objective'. The definition of subjective and objective were then discussed.
Des told the story of the guru who, on being asked "Is man in this world to honour the flower?", replied "Is the flower in this world to honour man?"
L said it is more important to encourage the asking of questions than to give people answers.
D commented that Ouspensky, near the end of his life, said that all the teaching was rubbish and he hadn't learned anything.
Gurdjieff's analysis and definition of the words that he used in his system were discussed. Words mean different things to different people and trying to speak about something requires careful definition - even then it is not possible to communicate deep knowledge in words alone; for this symbols are important.
L spoke of challenges of communication between Bushman and Europeans, and how it can be eased via intermediaries who have some knowledge of both cultures and languages and can act as a bridge.
"R" gave an example of how true symbolism is very rare in art. She described how she has experienced a few paintings in her life that have spoken to her on many levels - these rare paintings provide a symbol through image. A powerful painting is so because it resonates with meaning on a symbolic level with the viewer and achieves a real non-verbal communication from the painter to the viewer.
T said that engagement in creative activity helps with the capacity for paying attention. It is in the paying of attention to what one is trying to do that links one with oneself and the world. Attention is the link between inner and outer worlds.
"R" agreed that attention is key.
Sunday, May 2, 2010
The third force
The meeting started by continuing the reading from Chapter 4 of Ouspensky’s book "In Search of the Miraculous", in which Gurdjieff discusses the word "world" and introduces the concept of "the third force".
Man, said Gurdjieff, "was created by the same laws which created the whole of the world. The study of the world and the study of man must therefore run parallel, one helping the other."
T mentioned the case currently in the news of Prahlad Jani, whose metabolism is being studied as he appears not to eat or drink, and says this has been the case for seventy years.
A said that one's mind affects what happens to one's body. L recalled Carolyn Myss's maxim, "Biography becomes biology". A said that she tries to avoid negative conversations with a friend who is sometimes so disposed.
Gurdjieff described a nested view of perceived worlds: "We live not in one world, but in several . . . humanity forms an inseparable part of organic life on earth, therefore it would be right to say that the world nearest to us is organic life on earth . . . But . . . for organic life our planet the earth is 'world.' . . . 'World' for the earth is the planetary world of the solar system", and so on, until "the Absolute".
A said that in politics the Greens exhibit a link between the first and third worlds.
Gurdjieff commented that the Absolute does not influence us directly, but "the influence of the next world and the . . . star world are already perfectly clear in the life of man, although they are certainly unknown to science."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
L pointed out that there are few who have not consulted a horoscope.
In the following lecture reported by Ouspensky, Gurdjieff turned to what he termed "the third force".
In his view, when anything happens, there are three forces in play, but "the third force is not easily accessible to direct observation and understanding", which he compares to the difficulty we would experience in perceiving a fourth spatial dimension.
The two forces we are easily aware of tend to form a balance, and there is no significant change "until the third force makes its appearance".
T gave the example of how a stable period of eighteen years of conservative government changed in 1997.
L asked if people's inability to make up their mind for the forthcoming election was an example of third force?
A said that the older voters will be the third force.
L said the third force is very hard to see, can take different forms, and might be experienced as unpleasant.
A suggested it was analogous to an electric shock. L referred to Gurdjieff's expression of a "conscious shock".
Man, said Gurdjieff, "was created by the same laws which created the whole of the world. The study of the world and the study of man must therefore run parallel, one helping the other."
T mentioned the case currently in the news of Prahlad Jani, whose metabolism is being studied as he appears not to eat or drink, and says this has been the case for seventy years.
A said that one's mind affects what happens to one's body. L recalled Carolyn Myss's maxim, "Biography becomes biology". A said that she tries to avoid negative conversations with a friend who is sometimes so disposed.
Gurdjieff described a nested view of perceived worlds: "We live not in one world, but in several . . . humanity forms an inseparable part of organic life on earth, therefore it would be right to say that the world nearest to us is organic life on earth . . . But . . . for organic life our planet the earth is 'world.' . . . 'World' for the earth is the planetary world of the solar system", and so on, until "the Absolute".
A said that in politics the Greens exhibit a link between the first and third worlds.
Gurdjieff commented that the Absolute does not influence us directly, but "the influence of the next world and the . . . star world are already perfectly clear in the life of man, although they are certainly unknown to science."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
L pointed out that there are few who have not consulted a horoscope.
In the following lecture reported by Ouspensky, Gurdjieff turned to what he termed "the third force".
In his view, when anything happens, there are three forces in play, but "the third force is not easily accessible to direct observation and understanding", which he compares to the difficulty we would experience in perceiving a fourth spatial dimension.
The two forces we are easily aware of tend to form a balance, and there is no significant change "until the third force makes its appearance".
T gave the example of how a stable period of eighteen years of conservative government changed in 1997.
L asked if people's inability to make up their mind for the forthcoming election was an example of third force?
A said that the older voters will be the third force.
L said the third force is very hard to see, can take different forms, and might be experienced as unpleasant.
A suggested it was analogous to an electric shock. L referred to Gurdjieff's expression of a "conscious shock".
Sunday, April 4, 2010
The subjectivity of language
The meeting started with a reading from Ouspensky’s book "In Search of the Miraculous", Chapter 4, in which Gurdjieff talks about the impossibility of people understanding each other through language.
"People do not clearly realize to what a degree their language is subjective, that is, what different things each of them says while using the same words."
M mentioned a poem he had written in which music is considered as the language of heaven:
Further in the reading, Gurdjieff said that if one is to learn from the ancient teachings, an exact understanding of words between people is needed and that this is only possible by introducing the "principle of relativity" to each word used. The word man was given in the text as the first example with the numbers one to seven providing relativity to the meaning of the word.
M suggested that everyone around the table was of man number one, two or three. "Man number five", said Gurdjieff, "is . . . for us unattainable."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
There followed a discussion about the meaning of the word "man".
D said he realised he had achieved his dream by working hard over several years of thinking and doing and working towards a book, and the play of the book, and he had achieved this dream; but he realised that even after the book and the play had been written and successfully performed he was not happy. He called himself Judas M because he felt he had sold himself for 10 pieces of silver.
T quoted Joseph Campbell's saying, "follow your bliss" - following one's bliss, however, does not necessarily lead to a lived experience of a state of bliss.
"R" commented that there was a high from getting something published or performed which was like a drug high, followed by the low or withdrawal from the high after the accomplishment.
T mentioned Steven Pressfield, who worked without being published for many years, an author who battled with finishing his works. When he did at last finish a novel, he ran to share this moment with his mentor who remarked, "Good, now tomorrow get started on your next one". The work when one "finishes" a piece of creative work is to then continue onto the next project.
D mentioned a 94 year old woman who had spoken to him and said she wondered why she was "still here".
T quoted E. M. Forster, "Death destroys a man, but the idea of death saves him."
"People do not clearly realize to what a degree their language is subjective, that is, what different things each of them says while using the same words."
M mentioned a poem he had written in which music is considered as the language of heaven:
Meditations on a Musical Theme
Music is the language of heaven’s world
Which inspires our thoughts
To find the harmony within ourselves.
For on wings of song
The soul that is attuned
May fly to the very throne of God.
Soaring above the senses
Of our mortal minds
And reaching the higher realms
Of the being of which we are a part.
Co-mingling with
The inspirational essences
Of the divine symphony
Of eternal creation.
Verily - in seeking the treasure of love
Within ourselves
The sounds of music are a greater reality
Than the very ground beneath thy feet.
Music is the language of heaven’s world
Which inspires our thoughts
To find the harmony within ourselves.
For on wings of song
The soul that is attuned
May fly to the very throne of God.
Soaring above the senses
Of our mortal minds
And reaching the higher realms
Of the being of which we are a part.
Co-mingling with
The inspirational essences
Of the divine symphony
Of eternal creation.
Verily - in seeking the treasure of love
Within ourselves
The sounds of music are a greater reality
Than the very ground beneath thy feet.
Further in the reading, Gurdjieff said that if one is to learn from the ancient teachings, an exact understanding of words between people is needed and that this is only possible by introducing the "principle of relativity" to each word used. The word man was given in the text as the first example with the numbers one to seven providing relativity to the meaning of the word.
M suggested that everyone around the table was of man number one, two or three. "Man number five", said Gurdjieff, "is . . . for us unattainable."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
There followed a discussion about the meaning of the word "man".
D said he realised he had achieved his dream by working hard over several years of thinking and doing and working towards a book, and the play of the book, and he had achieved this dream; but he realised that even after the book and the play had been written and successfully performed he was not happy. He called himself Judas M because he felt he had sold himself for 10 pieces of silver.
T quoted Joseph Campbell's saying, "follow your bliss" - following one's bliss, however, does not necessarily lead to a lived experience of a state of bliss.
"R" commented that there was a high from getting something published or performed which was like a drug high, followed by the low or withdrawal from the high after the accomplishment.
T mentioned Steven Pressfield, who worked without being published for many years, an author who battled with finishing his works. When he did at last finish a novel, he ran to share this moment with his mentor who remarked, "Good, now tomorrow get started on your next one". The work when one "finishes" a piece of creative work is to then continue onto the next project.
D mentioned a 94 year old woman who had spoken to him and said she wondered why she was "still here".
T quoted E. M. Forster, "Death destroys a man, but the idea of death saves him."
Sunday, March 7, 2010
Knowledge and Being
As the meeting began, "R" brought information about the work of Z'ev ben Shimon Halevi, a teacher of the Spanish school of Kabbalah, whose school holds regular events in London.
"R" also reccomended the books "Views from the Real World" by Gurdjieff (as a very readable introduction to the Work), and "Gurdjieff - A Master in Life" by Tcheslaw Tchekhovitch, as an excellent account by a pupil.
The meeting continued with a reading from "In Search of the Miraculous" by Ouspensky, Chapter 4, on the relationship of knowledge and being.
Gurdjieff said "Man's development proceeds [along] the line of knowledge and the line of being." If one gets too far ahead of the other "Man's development goes wrong, and sooner or later it must come to a standstill."
"R" quoted from Meetings with Remarkable Men: "Only understanding can lead to being, whereas knowledge is but a passing presence in it."
The reading continued and paused at Gurdjieff's assertion that "entire civilizations have perished because knowledge outweighed being or being outweighed knowledge".
"R" suggest the development of the atom bomb as an example of this. "L" proferred how colonisation undermined established cultures, and "R" Mahatma Gandhi's protest against the salt tax in India.
"R" pointed out that one should not confuse Being and Knowledge with Essence and Personality.
L gave the example of chess, in which studying theory alone (knowledge) is of little assistance unless combined with playing.
T gave the example of appropriate technology in the developing world.
RM gave the example of athletes at the winter Olympics, who have combined being and knowledge and are a delight to watch.
Gurdjieff continues: "In ordinary thinking, people ... think that greater understanding depends on greater knowledge. Therefore they accumulate knowledge ... but they do not know how to accumulate understanding and do not bother about it."
RM said he sees this a lot in education.
Coming to the issue of language, Gurdjieff says "Two men can ... argue endlessly together without suspecting that they are thinking exactly the same. Or, vice versa, two men can ... imagine that they agree with ... one another, whereas they ... do not understand one another in the least."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
RK thought that personal experience was worth more than she had seen in the book.
"R" also reccomended the books "Views from the Real World" by Gurdjieff (as a very readable introduction to the Work), and "Gurdjieff - A Master in Life" by Tcheslaw Tchekhovitch, as an excellent account by a pupil.
The meeting continued with a reading from "In Search of the Miraculous" by Ouspensky, Chapter 4, on the relationship of knowledge and being.
Gurdjieff said "Man's development proceeds [along] the line of knowledge and the line of being." If one gets too far ahead of the other "Man's development goes wrong, and sooner or later it must come to a standstill."
"R" quoted from Meetings with Remarkable Men: "Only understanding can lead to being, whereas knowledge is but a passing presence in it."
The reading continued and paused at Gurdjieff's assertion that "entire civilizations have perished because knowledge outweighed being or being outweighed knowledge".
"R" suggest the development of the atom bomb as an example of this. "L" proferred how colonisation undermined established cultures, and "R" Mahatma Gandhi's protest against the salt tax in India.
"R" pointed out that one should not confuse Being and Knowledge with Essence and Personality.
L gave the example of chess, in which studying theory alone (knowledge) is of little assistance unless combined with playing.
T gave the example of appropriate technology in the developing world.
RM gave the example of athletes at the winter Olympics, who have combined being and knowledge and are a delight to watch.
Gurdjieff continues: "In ordinary thinking, people ... think that greater understanding depends on greater knowledge. Therefore they accumulate knowledge ... but they do not know how to accumulate understanding and do not bother about it."
RM said he sees this a lot in education.
Coming to the issue of language, Gurdjieff says "Two men can ... argue endlessly together without suspecting that they are thinking exactly the same. Or, vice versa, two men can ... imagine that they agree with ... one another, whereas they ... do not understand one another in the least."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
RK thought that personal experience was worth more than she had seen in the book.
Sunday, February 7, 2010
The absence of unity in Man
The meeting started with a reading from Ouspensky’s book "In Search of the Miraculous", Chapter 3, in which Gurdjieff talks about the lack of unity in man’s mind.
Gurdjieff tells us one of man’s chief mistakes is his illusion in regard to his "I".
"A man is never the same for long. He is continually changing . . . You will be astonished when you realize what a multitude . . . live in one man. If you learn to observe them there is no need to go to a cinema."
He went on to talk of the difficulty of change: "Nature has made [Man] such as he is, and, in large masses, so far as we can see, such he will remain. Changes likely to violate the general requirements of nature can only take place in separate units."
D said he recently used will to take over in a difficult talk situation (on depression). A recounted a similar experience. "R" brought attention on how to make this mode of mind happen. D listens to birsdong to still and focus the mind. RM said the will to stay in the present requires a special type of energy or resource.
Gurdjieff goes on to say "The evolution of large masses of humanity is opposed to nature's purposes . . . There exist, therefore, special forces (of a planetary character) which oppose the evolution of large masses of humanity and keep it at the level it ought, to be."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
RM turned the discussion to the question of what is negative.
D brought up violence on the news (even in middle of Radio 3 broadcasting)
RM suggested it is anything that stops one from being awake.
L said there are internet radio stations which provide classical music without interruption for news bulletins.
(One example is last.fm).
RM said has news media on all the time. The emotional response of the listener is a choice. Fantasy is not being in the present.
"R" pointed out that this brought up the question of subjectivity and objectivity; where does one end and the other begin?
A recalled a play where people were ignoring disturbing news bulletins in background.
L said it can be important to be aware of and respond to what is happening, and referred to the siege of Sarajevo and Germany in World War 2.
R said it is best not be affected but to respond to negativity
D described a nurse who had to leave a room as she was too emotionally affected.
A recounted how, after being told about a friend's tumour, she asked her friend to desist.
L said the response to negativity can ultimately lead to conflict.
RM said the attraction of negative news is that it can make one feel superior.
M said most people are revolving rather than evolving.
RM asked if it matters whether people are evolving. Once you start waking up there's no going back
D read an extract from the autobiography of Colin Wilson (author of "The War Against Sleep"): "I received a letter from a medium who explained she was passing on to me a message from someone called Gurdjieff – she had no idea who this might be. And the message, in Gurdjieff’s fractured English, certainly sounded exactly like the Master . . . it was more-or-less an exhortation to keep on going in the same direction."
It was pointed out that going on holiday splits attention in two, as one is also remembering normal responsibilities.
N said it can be split in three if you have left someone in a third place. Four people can climb the same tree but be sitting on different branches and think the trees (realities) are different.
"R" said they can look for links between what they see.
RM said that the only way is to be aware of where we are now.
DM said it is important not to forger compassion - thoughts create fellings.
RM said one can avoid thinking of the past and the future, i.e. that one should not be stopped by fears
"R" said imagination is a very important faculty but sometimes people start asking "what if...?"
L asked if anyone else found Gurdjieff's view to be fatalistic.
Gurdjieff tells us one of man’s chief mistakes is his illusion in regard to his "I".
"A man is never the same for long. He is continually changing . . . You will be astonished when you realize what a multitude . . . live in one man. If you learn to observe them there is no need to go to a cinema."
He went on to talk of the difficulty of change: "Nature has made [Man] such as he is, and, in large masses, so far as we can see, such he will remain. Changes likely to violate the general requirements of nature can only take place in separate units."
D said he recently used will to take over in a difficult talk situation (on depression). A recounted a similar experience. "R" brought attention on how to make this mode of mind happen. D listens to birsdong to still and focus the mind. RM said the will to stay in the present requires a special type of energy or resource.
Gurdjieff goes on to say "The evolution of large masses of humanity is opposed to nature's purposes . . . There exist, therefore, special forces (of a planetary character) which oppose the evolution of large masses of humanity and keep it at the level it ought, to be."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
RM turned the discussion to the question of what is negative.
D brought up violence on the news (even in middle of Radio 3 broadcasting)
RM suggested it is anything that stops one from being awake.
L said there are internet radio stations which provide classical music without interruption for news bulletins.
(One example is last.fm).
RM said has news media on all the time. The emotional response of the listener is a choice. Fantasy is not being in the present.
"R" pointed out that this brought up the question of subjectivity and objectivity; where does one end and the other begin?
A recalled a play where people were ignoring disturbing news bulletins in background.
L said it can be important to be aware of and respond to what is happening, and referred to the siege of Sarajevo and Germany in World War 2.
R said it is best not be affected but to respond to negativity
D described a nurse who had to leave a room as she was too emotionally affected.
A recounted how, after being told about a friend's tumour, she asked her friend to desist.
L said the response to negativity can ultimately lead to conflict.
RM said the attraction of negative news is that it can make one feel superior.
M said most people are revolving rather than evolving.
RM asked if it matters whether people are evolving. Once you start waking up there's no going back
D read an extract from the autobiography of Colin Wilson (author of "The War Against Sleep"): "I received a letter from a medium who explained she was passing on to me a message from someone called Gurdjieff – she had no idea who this might be. And the message, in Gurdjieff’s fractured English, certainly sounded exactly like the Master . . . it was more-or-less an exhortation to keep on going in the same direction."
It was pointed out that going on holiday splits attention in two, as one is also remembering normal responsibilities.
N said it can be split in three if you have left someone in a third place. Four people can climb the same tree but be sitting on different branches and think the trees (realities) are different.
"R" said they can look for links between what they see.
RM said that the only way is to be aware of where we are now.
DM said it is important not to forger compassion - thoughts create fellings.
RM said one can avoid thinking of the past and the future, i.e. that one should not be stopped by fears
"R" said imagination is a very important faculty but sometimes people start asking "what if...?"
L asked if anyone else found Gurdjieff's view to be fatalistic.
Sunday, January 3, 2010
Learning to know thyself
The meeting started with a reading from Ouspensky's book "In Search of the Miraculous", Chapter 6.
Gurdjieff said "the principle 'know thyself' speaks of the necessity of knowing one's machine, the 'human machine' . . . it requires much time and labor, and above all, the application of the right method and, what is equally necessary, right guidance. . . . Self-observation, especially in the beginning, must on no account become analysis" which "will only become possible much later."
M spoke of the difference between happening and doing. Attention is required because of distractions. Lots of little wills respond to external influences, and what's missing is unity. Self observation shows you when you are being automatic. Self knowledge requires a unified mind.
RS brought up his association with a song he remembered sung by Sammy Davis that was titled "Know thyself", though he could not remember the lyrics. The group discussed researching the lyrics in case they were relevant. M said this was an example of a distraction.
(The song includes the lines: "Know thyself, These words are true. Know thyself, I hope I do. Toil a while, but not in vain. I removed the child, the man remains.")
The reading continued: "Change under ordinary conditions is impossible, because . . . everything in the machine is interconnected."
. . .
"Having fixed in his own mind the difference between the intellectual, the emotional, and the moving functions, a man must, as he observes himself, immediately refer his impressions to this or that category . . . He must reject all vague or doubtful cases . . . If the work is carried on properly, the number of unquestionable observations will rapidly increase."
RM said how important it is to understand that life will not start to get better. This is a valuable first step. Gurdjieff said "Blessed is he who has a soul, blessed is he who has none, but woe and grief to him who has it in embryo". Be in touch with the moment, be present with yourself.
M said that Freud and Gurdjieff looked at the mind from different perspectives. Gurdjieff described four centres. The instinctive centre and the moving centre are two, their functions are different from the emotional and intellectual centres.
RS gave the example of seeing a croissant - this triggered the instinctive and moving centres.
L gave the example of a footballer, combining these two centres.
RS said he feels empathy for the suffering of others. M said emotions can be controlled. RS related that at one time he took a job playing keyboard at a funeral, but found himself crying with the mourners.
A said people like to talk about the problems of others, but "you cannot feel the cut unless you have the same cut yourself." M asked, "What is it that is experiencing the emotion?"
D quoted Ouspensky on his deathbed: "There is no system." RM referred to Gurdjieff's advice to move to self-observation. D asked what is true for us when we are with someone dying. RM said "Be aware, be present".
(Read the chapter in full in the book itself - an electronic version is available from the link on the right.)
Gurdjieff said "the principle 'know thyself' speaks of the necessity of knowing one's machine, the 'human machine' . . . it requires much time and labor, and above all, the application of the right method and, what is equally necessary, right guidance. . . . Self-observation, especially in the beginning, must on no account become analysis" which "will only become possible much later."
M spoke of the difference between happening and doing. Attention is required because of distractions. Lots of little wills respond to external influences, and what's missing is unity. Self observation shows you when you are being automatic. Self knowledge requires a unified mind.
RS brought up his association with a song he remembered sung by Sammy Davis that was titled "Know thyself", though he could not remember the lyrics. The group discussed researching the lyrics in case they were relevant. M said this was an example of a distraction.
(The song includes the lines: "Know thyself, These words are true. Know thyself, I hope I do. Toil a while, but not in vain. I removed the child, the man remains.")
The reading continued: "Change under ordinary conditions is impossible, because . . . everything in the machine is interconnected."
. . .
"Having fixed in his own mind the difference between the intellectual, the emotional, and the moving functions, a man must, as he observes himself, immediately refer his impressions to this or that category . . . He must reject all vague or doubtful cases . . . If the work is carried on properly, the number of unquestionable observations will rapidly increase."
RM said how important it is to understand that life will not start to get better. This is a valuable first step. Gurdjieff said "Blessed is he who has a soul, blessed is he who has none, but woe and grief to him who has it in embryo". Be in touch with the moment, be present with yourself.
M said that Freud and Gurdjieff looked at the mind from different perspectives. Gurdjieff described four centres. The instinctive centre and the moving centre are two, their functions are different from the emotional and intellectual centres.
RS gave the example of seeing a croissant - this triggered the instinctive and moving centres.
L gave the example of a footballer, combining these two centres.
RS said he feels empathy for the suffering of others. M said emotions can be controlled. RS related that at one time he took a job playing keyboard at a funeral, but found himself crying with the mourners.
A said people like to talk about the problems of others, but "you cannot feel the cut unless you have the same cut yourself." M asked, "What is it that is experiencing the emotion?"
D quoted Ouspensky on his deathbed: "There is no system." RM referred to Gurdjieff's advice to move to self-observation. D asked what is true for us when we are with someone dying. RM said "Be aware, be present".
(Read the chapter in full in the book itself - an electronic version is available from the link on the right.)
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