The meeting started by continuing the reading from Chapter 4 of Ouspensky’s book "In Search of the Miraculous", in which Gurdjieff discusses the word "world" and introduces the concept of "the third force".
Man, said Gurdjieff, "was created by the same laws which created the whole of the world. The study of the world and the study of man must therefore run parallel, one helping the other."
T mentioned the case currently in the news of Prahlad Jani, whose metabolism is being studied as he appears not to eat or drink, and says this has been the case for seventy years.
A said that one's mind affects what happens to one's body. L recalled Carolyn Myss's maxim, "Biography becomes biology". A said that she tries to avoid negative conversations with a friend who is sometimes so disposed.
Gurdjieff described a nested view of perceived worlds: "We live not in one world, but in several . . . humanity forms an inseparable part of organic life on earth, therefore it would be right to say that the world nearest to us is organic life on earth . . . But . . . for organic life our planet the earth is 'world.' . . . 'World' for the earth is the planetary world of the solar system", and so on, until "the Absolute".
A said that in politics the Greens exhibit a link between the first and third worlds.
Gurdjieff commented that the Absolute does not influence us directly, but "the influence of the next world and the . . . star world are already perfectly clear in the life of man, although they are certainly unknown to science."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
L pointed out that there are few who have not consulted a horoscope.
In the following lecture reported by Ouspensky, Gurdjieff turned to what he termed "the third force".
In his view, when anything happens, there are three forces in play, but "the third force is not easily accessible to direct observation and understanding", which he compares to the difficulty we would experience in perceiving a fourth spatial dimension.
The two forces we are easily aware of tend to form a balance, and there is no significant change "until the third force makes its appearance".
T gave the example of how a stable period of eighteen years of conservative government changed in 1997.
L asked if people's inability to make up their mind for the forthcoming election was an example of third force?
A said that the older voters will be the third force.
L said the third force is very hard to see, can take different forms, and might be experienced as unpleasant.
A suggested it was analogous to an electric shock. L referred to Gurdjieff's expression of a "conscious shock".
Sunday, May 2, 2010
Sunday, April 4, 2010
The subjectivity of language
The meeting started with a reading from Ouspensky’s book "In Search of the Miraculous", Chapter 4, in which Gurdjieff talks about the impossibility of people understanding each other through language.
"People do not clearly realize to what a degree their language is subjective, that is, what different things each of them says while using the same words."
M mentioned a poem he had written in which music is considered as the language of heaven:
Further in the reading, Gurdjieff said that if one is to learn from the ancient teachings, an exact understanding of words between people is needed and that this is only possible by introducing the "principle of relativity" to each word used. The word man was given in the text as the first example with the numbers one to seven providing relativity to the meaning of the word.
M suggested that everyone around the table was of man number one, two or three. "Man number five", said Gurdjieff, "is . . . for us unattainable."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
There followed a discussion about the meaning of the word "man".
D said he realised he had achieved his dream by working hard over several years of thinking and doing and working towards a book, and the play of the book, and he had achieved this dream; but he realised that even after the book and the play had been written and successfully performed he was not happy. He called himself Judas M because he felt he had sold himself for 10 pieces of silver.
T quoted Joseph Campbell's saying, "follow your bliss" - following one's bliss, however, does not necessarily lead to a lived experience of a state of bliss.
"R" commented that there was a high from getting something published or performed which was like a drug high, followed by the low or withdrawal from the high after the accomplishment.
T mentioned Steven Pressfield, who worked without being published for many years, an author who battled with finishing his works. When he did at last finish a novel, he ran to share this moment with his mentor who remarked, "Good, now tomorrow get started on your next one". The work when one "finishes" a piece of creative work is to then continue onto the next project.
D mentioned a 94 year old woman who had spoken to him and said she wondered why she was "still here".
T quoted E. M. Forster, "Death destroys a man, but the idea of death saves him."
"People do not clearly realize to what a degree their language is subjective, that is, what different things each of them says while using the same words."
M mentioned a poem he had written in which music is considered as the language of heaven:
Meditations on a Musical Theme
Music is the language of heaven’s world
Which inspires our thoughts
To find the harmony within ourselves.
For on wings of song
The soul that is attuned
May fly to the very throne of God.
Soaring above the senses
Of our mortal minds
And reaching the higher realms
Of the being of which we are a part.
Co-mingling with
The inspirational essences
Of the divine symphony
Of eternal creation.
Verily - in seeking the treasure of love
Within ourselves
The sounds of music are a greater reality
Than the very ground beneath thy feet.
Music is the language of heaven’s world
Which inspires our thoughts
To find the harmony within ourselves.
For on wings of song
The soul that is attuned
May fly to the very throne of God.
Soaring above the senses
Of our mortal minds
And reaching the higher realms
Of the being of which we are a part.
Co-mingling with
The inspirational essences
Of the divine symphony
Of eternal creation.
Verily - in seeking the treasure of love
Within ourselves
The sounds of music are a greater reality
Than the very ground beneath thy feet.
Further in the reading, Gurdjieff said that if one is to learn from the ancient teachings, an exact understanding of words between people is needed and that this is only possible by introducing the "principle of relativity" to each word used. The word man was given in the text as the first example with the numbers one to seven providing relativity to the meaning of the word.
M suggested that everyone around the table was of man number one, two or three. "Man number five", said Gurdjieff, "is . . . for us unattainable."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
There followed a discussion about the meaning of the word "man".
D said he realised he had achieved his dream by working hard over several years of thinking and doing and working towards a book, and the play of the book, and he had achieved this dream; but he realised that even after the book and the play had been written and successfully performed he was not happy. He called himself Judas M because he felt he had sold himself for 10 pieces of silver.
T quoted Joseph Campbell's saying, "follow your bliss" - following one's bliss, however, does not necessarily lead to a lived experience of a state of bliss.
"R" commented that there was a high from getting something published or performed which was like a drug high, followed by the low or withdrawal from the high after the accomplishment.
T mentioned Steven Pressfield, who worked without being published for many years, an author who battled with finishing his works. When he did at last finish a novel, he ran to share this moment with his mentor who remarked, "Good, now tomorrow get started on your next one". The work when one "finishes" a piece of creative work is to then continue onto the next project.
D mentioned a 94 year old woman who had spoken to him and said she wondered why she was "still here".
T quoted E. M. Forster, "Death destroys a man, but the idea of death saves him."
Sunday, March 7, 2010
Knowledge and Being
As the meeting began, "R" brought information about the work of Z'ev ben Shimon Halevi, a teacher of the Spanish school of Kabbalah, whose school holds regular events in London.
"R" also reccomended the books "Views from the Real World" by Gurdjieff (as a very readable introduction to the Work), and "Gurdjieff - A Master in Life" by Tcheslaw Tchekhovitch, as an excellent account by a pupil.
The meeting continued with a reading from "In Search of the Miraculous" by Ouspensky, Chapter 4, on the relationship of knowledge and being.
Gurdjieff said "Man's development proceeds [along] the line of knowledge and the line of being." If one gets too far ahead of the other "Man's development goes wrong, and sooner or later it must come to a standstill."
"R" quoted from Meetings with Remarkable Men: "Only understanding can lead to being, whereas knowledge is but a passing presence in it."
The reading continued and paused at Gurdjieff's assertion that "entire civilizations have perished because knowledge outweighed being or being outweighed knowledge".
"R" suggest the development of the atom bomb as an example of this. "L" proferred how colonisation undermined established cultures, and "R" Mahatma Gandhi's protest against the salt tax in India.
"R" pointed out that one should not confuse Being and Knowledge with Essence and Personality.
L gave the example of chess, in which studying theory alone (knowledge) is of little assistance unless combined with playing.
T gave the example of appropriate technology in the developing world.
RM gave the example of athletes at the winter Olympics, who have combined being and knowledge and are a delight to watch.
Gurdjieff continues: "In ordinary thinking, people ... think that greater understanding depends on greater knowledge. Therefore they accumulate knowledge ... but they do not know how to accumulate understanding and do not bother about it."
RM said he sees this a lot in education.
Coming to the issue of language, Gurdjieff says "Two men can ... argue endlessly together without suspecting that they are thinking exactly the same. Or, vice versa, two men can ... imagine that they agree with ... one another, whereas they ... do not understand one another in the least."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
RK thought that personal experience was worth more than she had seen in the book.
"R" also reccomended the books "Views from the Real World" by Gurdjieff (as a very readable introduction to the Work), and "Gurdjieff - A Master in Life" by Tcheslaw Tchekhovitch, as an excellent account by a pupil.
The meeting continued with a reading from "In Search of the Miraculous" by Ouspensky, Chapter 4, on the relationship of knowledge and being.
Gurdjieff said "Man's development proceeds [along] the line of knowledge and the line of being." If one gets too far ahead of the other "Man's development goes wrong, and sooner or later it must come to a standstill."
"R" quoted from Meetings with Remarkable Men: "Only understanding can lead to being, whereas knowledge is but a passing presence in it."
The reading continued and paused at Gurdjieff's assertion that "entire civilizations have perished because knowledge outweighed being or being outweighed knowledge".
"R" suggest the development of the atom bomb as an example of this. "L" proferred how colonisation undermined established cultures, and "R" Mahatma Gandhi's protest against the salt tax in India.
"R" pointed out that one should not confuse Being and Knowledge with Essence and Personality.
L gave the example of chess, in which studying theory alone (knowledge) is of little assistance unless combined with playing.
T gave the example of appropriate technology in the developing world.
RM gave the example of athletes at the winter Olympics, who have combined being and knowledge and are a delight to watch.
Gurdjieff continues: "In ordinary thinking, people ... think that greater understanding depends on greater knowledge. Therefore they accumulate knowledge ... but they do not know how to accumulate understanding and do not bother about it."
RM said he sees this a lot in education.
Coming to the issue of language, Gurdjieff says "Two men can ... argue endlessly together without suspecting that they are thinking exactly the same. Or, vice versa, two men can ... imagine that they agree with ... one another, whereas they ... do not understand one another in the least."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
RK thought that personal experience was worth more than she had seen in the book.
Sunday, February 7, 2010
The absence of unity in Man
The meeting started with a reading from Ouspensky’s book "In Search of the Miraculous", Chapter 3, in which Gurdjieff talks about the lack of unity in man’s mind.
Gurdjieff tells us one of man’s chief mistakes is his illusion in regard to his "I".
"A man is never the same for long. He is continually changing . . . You will be astonished when you realize what a multitude . . . live in one man. If you learn to observe them there is no need to go to a cinema."
He went on to talk of the difficulty of change: "Nature has made [Man] such as he is, and, in large masses, so far as we can see, such he will remain. Changes likely to violate the general requirements of nature can only take place in separate units."
D said he recently used will to take over in a difficult talk situation (on depression). A recounted a similar experience. "R" brought attention on how to make this mode of mind happen. D listens to birsdong to still and focus the mind. RM said the will to stay in the present requires a special type of energy or resource.
Gurdjieff goes on to say "The evolution of large masses of humanity is opposed to nature's purposes . . . There exist, therefore, special forces (of a planetary character) which oppose the evolution of large masses of humanity and keep it at the level it ought, to be."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
RM turned the discussion to the question of what is negative.
D brought up violence on the news (even in middle of Radio 3 broadcasting)
RM suggested it is anything that stops one from being awake.
L said there are internet radio stations which provide classical music without interruption for news bulletins.
(One example is last.fm).
RM said has news media on all the time. The emotional response of the listener is a choice. Fantasy is not being in the present.
"R" pointed out that this brought up the question of subjectivity and objectivity; where does one end and the other begin?
A recalled a play where people were ignoring disturbing news bulletins in background.
L said it can be important to be aware of and respond to what is happening, and referred to the siege of Sarajevo and Germany in World War 2.
R said it is best not be affected but to respond to negativity
D described a nurse who had to leave a room as she was too emotionally affected.
A recounted how, after being told about a friend's tumour, she asked her friend to desist.
L said the response to negativity can ultimately lead to conflict.
RM said the attraction of negative news is that it can make one feel superior.
M said most people are revolving rather than evolving.
RM asked if it matters whether people are evolving. Once you start waking up there's no going back
D read an extract from the autobiography of Colin Wilson (author of "The War Against Sleep"): "I received a letter from a medium who explained she was passing on to me a message from someone called Gurdjieff – she had no idea who this might be. And the message, in Gurdjieff’s fractured English, certainly sounded exactly like the Master . . . it was more-or-less an exhortation to keep on going in the same direction."
It was pointed out that going on holiday splits attention in two, as one is also remembering normal responsibilities.
N said it can be split in three if you have left someone in a third place. Four people can climb the same tree but be sitting on different branches and think the trees (realities) are different.
"R" said they can look for links between what they see.
RM said that the only way is to be aware of where we are now.
DM said it is important not to forger compassion - thoughts create fellings.
RM said one can avoid thinking of the past and the future, i.e. that one should not be stopped by fears
"R" said imagination is a very important faculty but sometimes people start asking "what if...?"
L asked if anyone else found Gurdjieff's view to be fatalistic.
Gurdjieff tells us one of man’s chief mistakes is his illusion in regard to his "I".
"A man is never the same for long. He is continually changing . . . You will be astonished when you realize what a multitude . . . live in one man. If you learn to observe them there is no need to go to a cinema."
He went on to talk of the difficulty of change: "Nature has made [Man] such as he is, and, in large masses, so far as we can see, such he will remain. Changes likely to violate the general requirements of nature can only take place in separate units."
D said he recently used will to take over in a difficult talk situation (on depression). A recounted a similar experience. "R" brought attention on how to make this mode of mind happen. D listens to birsdong to still and focus the mind. RM said the will to stay in the present requires a special type of energy or resource.
Gurdjieff goes on to say "The evolution of large masses of humanity is opposed to nature's purposes . . . There exist, therefore, special forces (of a planetary character) which oppose the evolution of large masses of humanity and keep it at the level it ought, to be."
(Read more on this from the book itself. An electronic version of this book is available from the link on the right.)
RM turned the discussion to the question of what is negative.
D brought up violence on the news (even in middle of Radio 3 broadcasting)
RM suggested it is anything that stops one from being awake.
L said there are internet radio stations which provide classical music without interruption for news bulletins.
(One example is last.fm).
RM said has news media on all the time. The emotional response of the listener is a choice. Fantasy is not being in the present.
"R" pointed out that this brought up the question of subjectivity and objectivity; where does one end and the other begin?
A recalled a play where people were ignoring disturbing news bulletins in background.
L said it can be important to be aware of and respond to what is happening, and referred to the siege of Sarajevo and Germany in World War 2.
R said it is best not be affected but to respond to negativity
D described a nurse who had to leave a room as she was too emotionally affected.
A recounted how, after being told about a friend's tumour, she asked her friend to desist.
L said the response to negativity can ultimately lead to conflict.
RM said the attraction of negative news is that it can make one feel superior.
M said most people are revolving rather than evolving.
RM asked if it matters whether people are evolving. Once you start waking up there's no going back
D read an extract from the autobiography of Colin Wilson (author of "The War Against Sleep"): "I received a letter from a medium who explained she was passing on to me a message from someone called Gurdjieff – she had no idea who this might be. And the message, in Gurdjieff’s fractured English, certainly sounded exactly like the Master . . . it was more-or-less an exhortation to keep on going in the same direction."
It was pointed out that going on holiday splits attention in two, as one is also remembering normal responsibilities.
N said it can be split in three if you have left someone in a third place. Four people can climb the same tree but be sitting on different branches and think the trees (realities) are different.
"R" said they can look for links between what they see.
RM said that the only way is to be aware of where we are now.
DM said it is important not to forger compassion - thoughts create fellings.
RM said one can avoid thinking of the past and the future, i.e. that one should not be stopped by fears
"R" said imagination is a very important faculty but sometimes people start asking "what if...?"
L asked if anyone else found Gurdjieff's view to be fatalistic.
Sunday, January 3, 2010
Learning to know thyself
The meeting started with a reading from Ouspensky's book "In Search of the Miraculous", Chapter 6.
Gurdjieff said "the principle 'know thyself' speaks of the necessity of knowing one's machine, the 'human machine' . . . it requires much time and labor, and above all, the application of the right method and, what is equally necessary, right guidance. . . . Self-observation, especially in the beginning, must on no account become analysis" which "will only become possible much later."
M spoke of the difference between happening and doing. Attention is required because of distractions. Lots of little wills respond to external influences, and what's missing is unity. Self observation shows you when you are being automatic. Self knowledge requires a unified mind.
RS brought up his association with a song he remembered sung by Sammy Davis that was titled "Know thyself", though he could not remember the lyrics. The group discussed researching the lyrics in case they were relevant. M said this was an example of a distraction.
(The song includes the lines: "Know thyself, These words are true. Know thyself, I hope I do. Toil a while, but not in vain. I removed the child, the man remains.")
The reading continued: "Change under ordinary conditions is impossible, because . . . everything in the machine is interconnected."
. . .
"Having fixed in his own mind the difference between the intellectual, the emotional, and the moving functions, a man must, as he observes himself, immediately refer his impressions to this or that category . . . He must reject all vague or doubtful cases . . . If the work is carried on properly, the number of unquestionable observations will rapidly increase."
RM said how important it is to understand that life will not start to get better. This is a valuable first step. Gurdjieff said "Blessed is he who has a soul, blessed is he who has none, but woe and grief to him who has it in embryo". Be in touch with the moment, be present with yourself.
M said that Freud and Gurdjieff looked at the mind from different perspectives. Gurdjieff described four centres. The instinctive centre and the moving centre are two, their functions are different from the emotional and intellectual centres.
RS gave the example of seeing a croissant - this triggered the instinctive and moving centres.
L gave the example of a footballer, combining these two centres.
RS said he feels empathy for the suffering of others. M said emotions can be controlled. RS related that at one time he took a job playing keyboard at a funeral, but found himself crying with the mourners.
A said people like to talk about the problems of others, but "you cannot feel the cut unless you have the same cut yourself." M asked, "What is it that is experiencing the emotion?"
D quoted Ouspensky on his deathbed: "There is no system." RM referred to Gurdjieff's advice to move to self-observation. D asked what is true for us when we are with someone dying. RM said "Be aware, be present".
(Read the chapter in full in the book itself - an electronic version is available from the link on the right.)
Gurdjieff said "the principle 'know thyself' speaks of the necessity of knowing one's machine, the 'human machine' . . . it requires much time and labor, and above all, the application of the right method and, what is equally necessary, right guidance. . . . Self-observation, especially in the beginning, must on no account become analysis" which "will only become possible much later."
M spoke of the difference between happening and doing. Attention is required because of distractions. Lots of little wills respond to external influences, and what's missing is unity. Self observation shows you when you are being automatic. Self knowledge requires a unified mind.
RS brought up his association with a song he remembered sung by Sammy Davis that was titled "Know thyself", though he could not remember the lyrics. The group discussed researching the lyrics in case they were relevant. M said this was an example of a distraction.
(The song includes the lines: "Know thyself, These words are true. Know thyself, I hope I do. Toil a while, but not in vain. I removed the child, the man remains.")
The reading continued: "Change under ordinary conditions is impossible, because . . . everything in the machine is interconnected."
. . .
"Having fixed in his own mind the difference between the intellectual, the emotional, and the moving functions, a man must, as he observes himself, immediately refer his impressions to this or that category . . . He must reject all vague or doubtful cases . . . If the work is carried on properly, the number of unquestionable observations will rapidly increase."
RM said how important it is to understand that life will not start to get better. This is a valuable first step. Gurdjieff said "Blessed is he who has a soul, blessed is he who has none, but woe and grief to him who has it in embryo". Be in touch with the moment, be present with yourself.
M said that Freud and Gurdjieff looked at the mind from different perspectives. Gurdjieff described four centres. The instinctive centre and the moving centre are two, their functions are different from the emotional and intellectual centres.
RS gave the example of seeing a croissant - this triggered the instinctive and moving centres.
L gave the example of a footballer, combining these two centres.
RS said he feels empathy for the suffering of others. M said emotions can be controlled. RS related that at one time he took a job playing keyboard at a funeral, but found himself crying with the mourners.
A said people like to talk about the problems of others, but "you cannot feel the cut unless you have the same cut yourself." M asked, "What is it that is experiencing the emotion?"
D quoted Ouspensky on his deathbed: "There is no system." RM referred to Gurdjieff's advice to move to self-observation. D asked what is true for us when we are with someone dying. RM said "Be aware, be present".
(Read the chapter in full in the book itself - an electronic version is available from the link on the right.)
Sunday, December 6, 2009
Aim and Purpose of the Teachings
The meeting started with a reading from Ouspensky's book "In Search of the Miraculous", Chapter 6, in which Gurdjieff answers some questions about the purpose of the teachings.
Regarding the aim of the teachings, Gurdjieff explained that a person must first have their own definite purpose, and that the teaching by itself can not pursue any definite aim, but "can only show men how to attain whatever aims they have".
L suggested that Gurdjieff's description of an aim was the opposite of the normal understanding, being about letting former aims adopted through social pressure fall away leaving one free to follow one's natural leaning (Law of Fate). R referred the meeting to the Five Strivings from Beelzebub's Tales.
On the question about knowing the future, Gurdjieff pointed out that what occurs today is the result of past events, and whatever will happen tomorrow will be a result of what is happening today. If a person wants tomorrow to be different for them in some way from today, they would have to try TODAY to make the changes they would like to see happening tomorrow. To do this, one would need to have "conscious will".
The reading continued with Gurdjieff's comments on Christianity. "In order to be Christians we must be able 'to do'. We cannot do; with us everything 'happens'." In the context of bankers receiving bonuses, RS mentioned selfishness and A referred to greed, asking how to respond to the fact that amid all the wealth, some people are destitute. L said that the verse "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God" has led to prejudice against the wealthy, whereas it is useful to understand it as meaning that wealth can distract one from inner purpose; the influence of the media, there to support advertising, fuels emotion against groups which can lead to scapegoating. RS wondered at the attraction of football and M likewise about the X Factor. M referred to the book Crowds and Power, by Elias Canetti.
On a question about being able to help other people Gurdjieff answered, "A great number of people . . . are too lazy to work on themselves, and at the same time it is very pleasant for them to think that they are able to help others. . . . Love of mankind, altruism, are all very fine words, but they only have meaning when a man is able, of his own choice and of his own decision, to love or not to love, to be an altruist or an egoist."
The reading continued, with a question about how to stop wars. Gurdjieff answered. 'Wars cannot be stopped . . . War is the result of the slavery in which man lives. Strictly speaking men are not to blame for war. War is due to cosmic forces, to planetary influences." A said it was obvious to anyone that the war was about oil. L referred to the power of the media, questioning if it was truly obvious, as America imports only 14.5% of its oil from the Middle-East, with a small proportion of that from Iraq, and none from Afghanistan.
(Read the chapter in full in the book itself - an electronic version is available from the link on the right. There is also a link to the Five Strivings.)
Regarding the aim of the teachings, Gurdjieff explained that a person must first have their own definite purpose, and that the teaching by itself can not pursue any definite aim, but "can only show men how to attain whatever aims they have".
L suggested that Gurdjieff's description of an aim was the opposite of the normal understanding, being about letting former aims adopted through social pressure fall away leaving one free to follow one's natural leaning (Law of Fate). R referred the meeting to the Five Strivings from Beelzebub's Tales.
On the question about knowing the future, Gurdjieff pointed out that what occurs today is the result of past events, and whatever will happen tomorrow will be a result of what is happening today. If a person wants tomorrow to be different for them in some way from today, they would have to try TODAY to make the changes they would like to see happening tomorrow. To do this, one would need to have "conscious will".
The reading continued with Gurdjieff's comments on Christianity. "In order to be Christians we must be able 'to do'. We cannot do; with us everything 'happens'." In the context of bankers receiving bonuses, RS mentioned selfishness and A referred to greed, asking how to respond to the fact that amid all the wealth, some people are destitute. L said that the verse "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God" has led to prejudice against the wealthy, whereas it is useful to understand it as meaning that wealth can distract one from inner purpose; the influence of the media, there to support advertising, fuels emotion against groups which can lead to scapegoating. RS wondered at the attraction of football and M likewise about the X Factor. M referred to the book Crowds and Power, by Elias Canetti.
On a question about being able to help other people Gurdjieff answered, "A great number of people . . . are too lazy to work on themselves, and at the same time it is very pleasant for them to think that they are able to help others. . . . Love of mankind, altruism, are all very fine words, but they only have meaning when a man is able, of his own choice and of his own decision, to love or not to love, to be an altruist or an egoist."
The reading continued, with a question about how to stop wars. Gurdjieff answered. 'Wars cannot be stopped . . . War is the result of the slavery in which man lives. Strictly speaking men are not to blame for war. War is due to cosmic forces, to planetary influences." A said it was obvious to anyone that the war was about oil. L referred to the power of the media, questioning if it was truly obvious, as America imports only 14.5% of its oil from the Middle-East, with a small proportion of that from Iraq, and none from Afghanistan.
(Read the chapter in full in the book itself - an electronic version is available from the link on the right. There is also a link to the Five Strivings.)
Sunday, November 1, 2009
Knowledge and Being
The meeting started with a reading from Ouspensky’s book "In Search of the Miraculous", Chapter 4, in which the relationship of knowledge and being are described. For the level of being to grow, it needs not only knowledge, but knowledge with the understanding that comes from personal experience. In Ouspensky's account, Gurdjieff tells us that “being or existence may be of very different levels and categories . . . the being of two people can differ from one another more than the being of a mineral and of an animal."
R referred the meeting to Chapter X of “Meetings with Remarkable Men”, in which Brother Giovanni (quoted by Gurdjieff) says “. . . knowledge and understanding are quite different. Only understanding can lead to being, whereas knowledge is but a passing presence in it. New knowledge displaces the old and the result is, as it were, a pouring from the empty into the void.”
(Read more on the above from the books - electronic versions of both books are available from the link on the right.)
In the ensuing discussion, R used the word “presence” to describe being. L mentioned the additional meaning of the word, as a “gift” intentionally given to the self at a conscious moment. M gave the example of the absent minded professor, as knowledge without being which is inapplicable to life. Knowledge, being and experience give a a more meaningful picture.
The issue of taking in knowledge above one’s comprehension was discussed, how much potential knowledge gives, and what knowledge can a sleeping man have? How can one change one’s being?
A recent BBC television program covering the history of the Rolls Royce company was mentioned, which some present had seen. L cited the case of the Wright Brothers, who had the knowledge to build the first aeroplane, but lacked the vision that there might be a big future for air transport, and it was William Boeing who had that conviction and carried the vision through to reality.
A said that an artist often needs a grounded business manager. A choreographer requires a producer and director and dancers. RS cited an example of a piano pupil who, despite limited knowledge, was able to play a particular song with a deeper interpretation than could he. L gave the example of autistic savants who play the piano with technical accuracy but cannot express emotion.
M read on, that being is aimless without knowledge. Knowledge outweighing being or being outweighing knowledge leaves a person as a weak yogi or a stupid saint who cannot develop further.
RS said he had taught a pupil to play piano using automatic behaviour. For being one needs a certain amount of knowledge. Being does not increase understanding.
L mentioned that in the case of the piano, and sports, knowledge is partly used by the Moving Centre – we need to consider how awareness of our own bodies relates to the process of waking up. T added that mechanical behaviour is a useful and necessary component for something to grow. L described the Greek concept of the Muses. There were nine different Muses for different kinds of art. An alternative way of being is to be open to external ideas.
T suggested the use of Venn diagrams using sets to illustrate the different areas and relationships between them. L suggested the possibility of each person at the Meetings having the enneagram diagram in front of them to help analyse the concepts under discussion.
M, continuing the reading, said that when the three centres meet together (intellectual, emotional and moving) there is understanding.
A gave an example where she was required to act a particular role, and because she had already personally experienced in real life what was scripted to happened to her on stage, she felt immobilised as it was too graphically real – a conscious shock.
RS recalled seeing a foreign language news item where he couldn’t understand any of the language. Many years before, as a child he had been taught a little Arabic by his father. He saw a woman embracing a man who had been shot, and heard her say, in Arabic, “My darling, my darling”. He immediately felt a wave of empathy and was very moved by the scene. This was knowledge and being coming together to wake him up.
M said one should ask what is one’s aim or purpose in life. Is one’s present activity in line with one’s higher purpose?
RM said one’s destination is about being present. L said that Gurdjieff’s concept of the law of fate meant that we are born with a predisposition for a certain kind of life and can act in that direction rather than let it pass us by. RM said that fate stops when you move into being.
R said that when you think you know you know, you’ve closed a door.
RM said that one can awaken by meditation - being with the void, the platform that everything else stands on - being the sea and not the waves. L asked how one could be sure that one was awake. R spoke of the importance of “being in question”.
R referred the meeting to Chapter X of “Meetings with Remarkable Men”, in which Brother Giovanni (quoted by Gurdjieff) says “. . . knowledge and understanding are quite different. Only understanding can lead to being, whereas knowledge is but a passing presence in it. New knowledge displaces the old and the result is, as it were, a pouring from the empty into the void.”
(Read more on the above from the books - electronic versions of both books are available from the link on the right.)
In the ensuing discussion, R used the word “presence” to describe being. L mentioned the additional meaning of the word, as a “gift” intentionally given to the self at a conscious moment. M gave the example of the absent minded professor, as knowledge without being which is inapplicable to life. Knowledge, being and experience give a a more meaningful picture.
The issue of taking in knowledge above one’s comprehension was discussed, how much potential knowledge gives, and what knowledge can a sleeping man have? How can one change one’s being?
A recent BBC television program covering the history of the Rolls Royce company was mentioned, which some present had seen. L cited the case of the Wright Brothers, who had the knowledge to build the first aeroplane, but lacked the vision that there might be a big future for air transport, and it was William Boeing who had that conviction and carried the vision through to reality.
A said that an artist often needs a grounded business manager. A choreographer requires a producer and director and dancers. RS cited an example of a piano pupil who, despite limited knowledge, was able to play a particular song with a deeper interpretation than could he. L gave the example of autistic savants who play the piano with technical accuracy but cannot express emotion.
M read on, that being is aimless without knowledge. Knowledge outweighing being or being outweighing knowledge leaves a person as a weak yogi or a stupid saint who cannot develop further.
RS said he had taught a pupil to play piano using automatic behaviour. For being one needs a certain amount of knowledge. Being does not increase understanding.
L mentioned that in the case of the piano, and sports, knowledge is partly used by the Moving Centre – we need to consider how awareness of our own bodies relates to the process of waking up. T added that mechanical behaviour is a useful and necessary component for something to grow. L described the Greek concept of the Muses. There were nine different Muses for different kinds of art. An alternative way of being is to be open to external ideas.
T suggested the use of Venn diagrams using sets to illustrate the different areas and relationships between them. L suggested the possibility of each person at the Meetings having the enneagram diagram in front of them to help analyse the concepts under discussion.
M, continuing the reading, said that when the three centres meet together (intellectual, emotional and moving) there is understanding.
A gave an example where she was required to act a particular role, and because she had already personally experienced in real life what was scripted to happened to her on stage, she felt immobilised as it was too graphically real – a conscious shock.
RS recalled seeing a foreign language news item where he couldn’t understand any of the language. Many years before, as a child he had been taught a little Arabic by his father. He saw a woman embracing a man who had been shot, and heard her say, in Arabic, “My darling, my darling”. He immediately felt a wave of empathy and was very moved by the scene. This was knowledge and being coming together to wake him up.
M said one should ask what is one’s aim or purpose in life. Is one’s present activity in line with one’s higher purpose?
RM said one’s destination is about being present. L said that Gurdjieff’s concept of the law of fate meant that we are born with a predisposition for a certain kind of life and can act in that direction rather than let it pass us by. RM said that fate stops when you move into being.
R said that when you think you know you know, you’ve closed a door.
RM said that one can awaken by meditation - being with the void, the platform that everything else stands on - being the sea and not the waves. L asked how one could be sure that one was awake. R spoke of the importance of “being in question”.
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